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E12: Relationships Aren't Quantitative with Jeffrey Eisenberg


Show Notes

What’s the ROI of smiling at your spouse?
Buyer Legends CEO Jeffrey Eisenberg poses this question in E12.
Here and there, the consequences of not smiling at your spouse are probably nothing. But over time, not smiling could be the DOWNFALL of the relationship.
But smiling is such an...intangible gesture.
How would you quantify that?
The answer—is you probably can't.
And it's the same in customer relationships. 
Jeffrey Eisenberg is a recognized authority and pioneer of Internet marketing strategy; improving online conversion rates for sales and lead generation.
He is also the co-author of the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, USA Today and New York Times bestselling books “Call to Action” & “Waiting For Your Cat to Bark?”, and most recently, "Be Like Amazon". He has written for the popular marketing optimization blog GrokDotCom, eMarketing & Commerce Magazine & Forbes.com. Jeffrey has been a speaker and delivered the keynote speech at conferences like Search Engine Strategies, WSI Excellence & Innovation, Shop.org, Direct Marketing Association, MarketingSherpa, AD:Tech Miami, Search Engine Strategies Latino, NAB, Canadian Marketing Association and at corporate events like Intel’s retail customer appreciation summit.
In 1998, Jeffrey co-founded FutureNow Inc. and served as CEO until September 2009. During his tenure at Future Now he helped businesses generate more engagements, leads, subscriptions, and sales with the framework he co-invented, Persuasion Architecture®. His proudest professional accomplishments are the thousands of companies, students and clients, including HP, NBC Universal, GE, WebEx, Overstock and Google, that have consistently enjoyed dramatic improvement in online sales and lead generation.
Be Like Amazon: https://amzn.to/2ut1VWN



Welcome to Insider Insights. I'm your host Lorin McCann. And today I have a special guest, Jeffrey Eisenberg. Jeffrey is the CEO of buyer legends where he and his brother who's also his partner, have refined the process of using storytelling from the customer's perspective to optimize the customer journey. And throughout his career he's worked with companies like h key NBC Universal, GE Webex, overstock, Google. He's spoken at high profile conferences and he's the Co author of several books including a, a couple of bestsellers Wall Street Journal Business Week, USA Today and New York Times bestselling books called action and waiting for your cat to bark. So Jeffrey also shares that companies routinely have revenue blind spots that cost them 20 to 60% of their revenue. And so as optimization experts buying legends has helped companies increase sales by over a billion dollars using their proprietary framework. So I hope that's something we're going to get into a little bit more about. Wow. I mean, Jeffrey, this is just one of the most action packed Intros that we've had so far. You really done so much. I've shared, I want to say a little, I feel like I've shared a lot about you, but why don't you give us the numbers, give us more of an overview into what you do and your current role.

So it's kind of interesting cause you ran that probably off of some of that research you got off of Linkedin. And while we used to say, you know, we've, we've got a mixed metaphor right now that we did it through storytelling from the customer perspective. That's actually correct. However, what we, what we say we do today is that we help increase sales by uncovering revenue blind spots. And what we do is a combination of UI work, customer experience, work testing you know, and if you [email protected] about us page, you'll see we've been recognized in lots of different disciplines as experts, but we've never wanted to be experts in any one discipline. We consider ourselves very strong generalists. It's just that every once in a while we come at things from a different angle and that, that particular industry will look at it and say, Oh wow, that's really cool.

Our focus has, has always been through on increasing sales. Right? So we invented the term conversion rate optimization. Nobody knew what that was. We were, we were doing it. And we would go into search engine conferences and everybody knew SCO. So we decided that we would call it conversion rate optimization. And from day one we had a certain amount of cognitive dissonance cause we knew that the thing that we were saying was actually wrong. You cannot optimize output and outcome rational. Actually, basically conversion rate is is a metric, right? That's the result of the input. And so we knew that you couldn't actually optimize it. You could, you could possibly increase it. But we were we were banned by the industry. So anyway, that's, that's my story. Yes. We've worked with bunches of big companies and sometimes I, I feel uncomfortable or a little embarrassed talking about us.

Well, I totally understand. Maybe I can help do some of that for you on this call. It if I say something that's outdated, you can just bring us up to speed with you know, what, what you guys are doing now. And actually with that you know, let's get right into that. Like something current, something that's exciting. You right now you're a business expert with a ton going on. So what's the market trend or project that you're working on or new book? What's the thing that just has you most excited right now?

It's a thing that has us most excited as we were working mostly with big companies. And it's not to say that we still don't because they often are willing to pay such nice fees. But in the past couple of years we've had a lot of focus on trying to work with owner operators and it was due to an experience that happened with some friends and with one of our mentors, Roy Williams, who only worked with those kinds of companies and asked us to help somebody. And what we realized was how exciting it is when people actually want to do the right thing for the company. Now, let me be clear, I'm not being cynical about people's motivations, but in the big company, you're not really hired to improve the company. You're basically there to help your career, right? You know, we've got you know, we've got all these stories about, you know, helping people get what they wanted and then they lose interest because they've exceeded their their bonus structure. Why do they need to do more? Maybe we'll do that next year or that kind of thing. And it's really nice to work with people who appreciate it. So you, you know, we've been working with service companies over 5 million product companies over 20 million. Right? and it's fascinating because yes, they have politics, right? Like any organization. And they have real resource issues. Okay. But it's easier to affect change, right? Both people love status quo. [inaudible]

One street and that's, that's all we're getting. Good. We're getting good ever faster. Yeah. So that's, that's been our focus is on working with smaller clients, right? I mean, you know, we were just about to start another engagement with your Packard enterprise. Right. But and, and again, it's people we've worked with for years, we know that they lack what we do and they know how to move it forward in big companies. There usually isn't a budget item for 'do the right thing by customers and it'll reward you over the long term'. That's, you know, that, that's why we wrote be like Amazon, even a lemonade stand can do it. Cause we were, we, we love to use Amazon as a model because we think they're perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they just do so many things right. That we've used Amazon to explain everything else.

Yeah. And I think that's great because it's something that people understand right away. And that's the tough, that's the tough thing when, you know, you're saying there's not that line item for doing the right thing by the customers. I think in the space that I'm in, in B2B, this is a trend that like we're seeing more and more, but it's, it's happening slowly and I think it's, it's happening because it needs to happen because it's starting to hurt the bottom line. So companies are starting to adopt, you know, like more customer success and things of that nature. But you know, I, I've watched some of your video presentations and everything on online and something that really stood out to me.

Yeah. They're out though. We put them out there.

Yeah, they're out there. What are you going to do about it now? Yeah, they're out there. But something that I really took away from it is just how much enthusiasm you bring to all of the topics that you talk about. It really seems like in the work that you do, you like to have fun and so can you, can you tell me more about that?

So look, w we, we started the first conversion rate optimization agency years ago. We got out of it over 10 years ago and since then we've been consulting. And you know, it's very unlike our clients because we're deliberately not looking to grow. You know, I have a couple of employers, I would take another couple if we needed to, but really I've always found that small teams are the most fun. And not having the burden of having to, I'm having a big payroll, right. Means that, that we can always take the stuff that interest us. Right. I mean, sometimes, sometimes it's the stuff that just pays well and that's interesting too. Okay. But most of the time it's stuff that's like fascinating or we're an unusual challenge. That's so, so yes, fun is important. And you know, you know, from when, just before you turn the record button on that my mind goes all over the place and sort of Brian's and we have hard time finishing sentences. And so you know, it has to be fun or we're just, we're not engaged.

Yeah. Well, I totally love it. And actually, so here's something we, we also chatted about right before we jumped on is cro is something you guys did a long time ago. You talked a little bit about it and you know it for us and the clients that that we work with, I mean what we do, customer intelligence institute is really, we're focused on the customer journey, but really more so at this point, the buyer journey and it's not very sexy. Nobody wants to take the time to actually talk to buyers. But what they're really interested in, which we also do some work with is, is cro. It's really buzzy. It, it feels like a silver, silver bullet and we can always get results with it, but they're not always longterm investment results. So I'm really curious to know why did that kind of lose it sparkle for you? Why is that not fun anymore?

Just because of W W we're still very involved in the community. We know a lot of the players, you'll see some of them using some of our structures to expand customer experience works. So we haven't walked away from it. Right. But we're very disillusioned with where it went. When we started out, what we basically were talking about was instead of conversion rate, our first metaphor that we tried was digital sales people, right? What you're saying was, hey, this is not marketing in a traditional sense. Marketing in the traditional sense is you know, and I'm not talking about advertising, but I'm talking about message. It's very static, right? You, you've created distribution, you, you create things and then it's kind of passive, right? Even a brochure and it's passive. But what we said was, hey guys, this is interaction interactions take place in milliseconds, right? What we're doing is in tracking, we have to know the questions that we can program the answer, right?

We're having dialogue. Well, that's still not a current thought, right? But it's not alien anymore. When we were saying people looking at us like we're from Mars, okay. But we, we focused on cro and said, hey, there should one day be somebody who's responsible for, and remember this was long ago, we're just talking about online then, right? Online sales in the same way that you know that there a VP of sales, right? And the, they're responsible everything, and they have a seat at the table with product and they're, they're much more influential even than marketing. And we're kind of disappointed that never happened. Right? Cro usually operates at the director, manager level. VPS are not deeply involved in it. And, and it was seen more as a tactic, right? As a way you can do things. And we're partially responsible for this.

We, we love to give this example. So we're working with overstock. Okay. This is really early on. This must be 2000 to 2001. They were doing about $500 million in sales and Patrick had already worked with us a few times and he reaches out to me. I'm an AOL messenger, right? That's the aim. And so Patrick reaches out and he says you have a minute. And I said, it's 3:00 AM. And he says, but you have a minute. You're obviously money. And so we jumped on the phone and he said to us, the most interesting thing at this point, by the way, they had statisticians, PhDs, like they have people working on this stuff, but there was a part of the site that sold all sorts of video stuff. Okay. And he says, you know, we have a 92% abandonment rate on this category page and we have no idea why, and nobody can tell me. And so we fixed it by changing an image and no, I can't actually tell you how to do without taking you through a presentation of what we did. But here's the thing, it increased sales by 5% top line. Right? Right. And it was pretty permanent. I mean, so much so the back then he gave us a testimonial saying that we are number one and blah, blah, blah. You know, he quoted that 5% increase in sales. Right? It was, that meant and it was kind of excited.

And so those are the stories that we published to talk about CRO. Right? And the thing is that, that's a silver bullet, right? Like, who doesn't want, right? Like we used to joke that all the customers really want is a little black box that we could attach to their server, right? And that it would just produce revenue, just income. Right? We just, I mean that's what they really, really want it. And so,


The, the, the good news is they have like an extra $25 million. The bad news is that by telling stories like that, we are the ones who help create that expectation. Right? And so people are looking for these big wins, right? Big Win for problem, you know. And in fact, in working with with clients, one of their, one of the biggest issues is working to stage expectations.

Tell me more about that. Okay. It's, it's [inaudible] you had sent me some things, think about before and I was thinking about this and one of the biggest challenges is this, what happens? And, and we've had, I can think of dozens of examples. Okay. I was driving my daughter to daycare while I was thinking about them. And it's like, this is, this is the real problem. Okay. So, you know, if somebody has a stick in their eye and you remove it, right? Wow, you're a hero. Okay. But now they may have all sorts of other issues but too long to be much less motivated to do them. In other words, if you start out with a bag, right? So how do you stage expectations? And now we're not even talking about the conversion rate work we're doing. We're talking about like the overall customer experience focused on making more sales work. Absolutely. Just teach it so that some of these things that our long term investments, right, where, where the change is incremental, how do you keep them motivated and interested? I mean, you know, one of my favorite questions that I ask them is what's the ROI of smiling at your spouse?

Okay. And I said, you know, you don't have to do that. You could wake up and say good morning and maybe you're a little grumpy. There's no smile and it's falling. No longterm effect. But would it be the, what would be the effect if you simply stopped smiling? Right? And I said, you don't, it would be hard to figure out where that arose, right. Where when the relationship goes up and of course it would probably manifest itself in things directly about the smile. Right? So it's, it's hard to keep people focused on the important, right? They're mostly focused on be urgent, right back that new nagging deadline. Right. And, and there is a tendency in western businesses especially, right? Cause I'm, I'm thinking, okay, so you're, we're speaking from Europe. There will be people thinking about the, you know, th that are in the east west, you think a little bit differently than us. Okay. Not always, but, but there's some different thoughts there, but what happens when you're building towards these long term goals and sometimes it's just something that you're doing that's the right thing. How do you quantify that? Right. Because the obsession that we have with quantification, okay. Leaves out the qualitative side. Right? Relationships are quantitative, right? You know, people who say, well, our relationship is 50, 50 yeah, I'd love to see how you count that. Right? there's a quality involved in what we do with our customers. For example, right? If you call Zappos, okay, they have this counter intuitive call center. The whole call center is organized besides the fact that it's crazy. If you ever go to Las Vegas and visit, you'll just, you want to get the tour because everybody has their cubicles decorated in weird ways and there's all, you know, when you walk through they'll, they'll make all sorts of noises anyway. It's kind of cold, but that's not the story. The story is that most customer service people are measured on the metric of how long they take to resolve something. Right? So, and that's reasonable, right? Cause there's only a certain amount of hours, there's people on queue and stuff like that.

Zappos does something very, very different. Okay. We encourage people to stay on as long as it takes to resolve the problem, but also just to make sure that the customer's actually happy. Just resolving the problem might not make it why they have all these authorities to grant things like, Oh, free returns or oh, we'll change that or don't worry about it. And they'll make friends and their stories about them sending pizzas. Hey, the people they learn about sorority as somebody, some students were studying, eating and anyway, long story to buy it, but their job is to create happiness. Okay. And that's measured by the still crazy loyalty that people have. Does that look okay? How do you measure that on a quantitative basis? I don't know. Right work, but it's very hard to write. It's more than the intuitive realm. And this, and this is love to think about numbers, but there's this fascinating study that was done.

And I could, I could get you the links to it. Maybe one Polish is like getting the, the audience. But basically they were Fmri studies where they showed that when people were fixed on it, you know, there was, they were thinking about kind of methodical stuff, math you know, think of a spreadsheet and write all these reports. Their empathy centers of their brains weren't lighting up. And the opposite when people were, we're thinking about characters were watching movies where with strong characters, their empathy areas would light up but not their analytical area. Okay. It's literally impossible to do both at the same time. And so our data-driven culture actually hurts us a little bit. Right? I mean, and, and, and the funny thing is, you know, my, my brother's the chairman Emeritas of the digital analytics association and it was our second book that we ever wrote was on analytics. So yeah, I, I, I don't want to sound like I don't care about quantitative, but qualitative is the part that's human that's about relationships that seems to be missing. Right. And we suppressive further by focusing so much on numbers.

I absolutely agree. That is such a great overview. And I think especially coming from someone who like wrote the book on analytics, you know, that's really powerful because we do forget about it too, too frequently. And you know, what we focused on is the qualitative side, you know, predominantly. And so it's a much harder sell. So you know, it's, it's harder I guess because of the way a lot of these, these companies incentivize employees and incentivize the leadership and everything. But I think that they're much more interesting problems to solve for when you're going, when you're going in and you're looking at relationships and you're, you can use, you know, intuition and you can be more creative and have more fun with it. So what, what's more of a holistic approach that you take when you're looking at your, your being analytical, you know, but you're coming into make more holistic improvements to drive sales. I mean, what would that typically look like?

So first I want to tell you that we have a [inaudible] that we've even developed a modeling language for our stories. Okay. That'll allow you to go back to an analytical, like we, we have in, in our customer engagements, what we do is we create a buyer legend man. And it's literally just a few simple steps. The person who a choose a different perspective, right? To the degree that you're able to, so we could do this in a few minutes and just take two perspectives that are not ours and not believe flesh. And say, OK, we're going to start that. And then the next thing we would do is we would take those mini little characters that we built and say, all right, let's do a premortem. Okay, okay. What could possibly go wrong? But we stopped these people from making the sale from, from actually buying what would stop them, right?

Keeping in mind that we've got control over two things, right? Friction and motivation, right? We can, we can do things, change that, but that's basically all we can do, right? So first and premortem and then we do the second part of the pre-mortem, which is to figure out what it is that would solve that problem, right? Some problems are unsolvable by the way, and that's okay, but we know, and so we are accounting for it. This next thing we do is we turn that into our reverse chronology and way to think of it this way, right? Story telling. And I'll go into a little bit more about the characters at the end. Okay. Storytelling for most people involves a once upon a time or a powerful story. The thing about storytelling and it's very memorable and sticks with us, right? But once upon a time can go anywhere we are not doing go anywhere, okay.

This is the point where we become more analytical and say, no, what's the point? Right? you know, customer who's bought from you multiple times, who calls you first, what does that look like? And then we work backwards because it usually very, it very rarely bifurcates or like, you know, if you're trying to go from the other way, it's like endless span, right? So what we're doing is basically creating an outline for a story and then we write the story and that story is shared and it's, it's full of commanders intent, the military term for what? What do we actually want? Right? you know, this is there, I'm going to go on a tangent for a second. A friend of ours

Recently wrote a book, but he, he referred to a study in ink magazine. Okay. Where they asked executives whether they thought that their replies could identify their top priorities. And so 64% of them said shorter. I could, sure everybody could when they asked employees, only 2% could. Okay. So it's a communication of the entire intent of what do we actually want to achieve is in that story. Now about the stories. And as a customer intelligence person, you'll appreciate this because you can collect all this data. But remember data doesn't digest in the emotional stuff. It just doesn't then. And the FMR. I said what we do is we create personas, but we contend that the way that Sonos are used, cause there are common now they were not common when we wrote waiting for cat to bark in 2005. Right. And we covered our process for doing it.

But back then what we were saying was it's not enough to know the information. The inspiration for personas can't be the common use. It right now has been from copers, the the inmates running the asylum because he used them for domain knowledge and how to design user interfaces and how to figure out what people wanted from software, right as completion, that kind of thing. And then they kind of became popular by using things like cohorts, right? So people would use all this demographic information, psychographic information, and they create these personas. But what we do is actually different. We collect that data. Okay. And we have different ways of showing this, of anticipating the shape of a problem. There's not unlimited ways to buy any one thing, right? You know, even though somebody may be highly emotional and make highly emotional decisions, if you're buying a jet engine for an aircraft, right?

There's a process for buying it. There's a shape to it, right? There may be, and there is a lot of wining and dining and some kinds of excitement about it, but which, which actually needs to be accounted for and creative, right? These high ticket items take a lot of wining and dining. But there was a shape and in waiting for cat to bark, it explains exactly what we mean by shape the problem. But what we're doing is we're creating characters. The way personas were originally meant in Greek drama. They would put on that mask, the mask with a smile on the front. A persona is putting on a mask and you take on those attributes. And so what we saw was that it was more akin cause we're doing interaction right to a character, a real character from literature. Right. I'm certain that most of us remember all the cartoons we've watched, movies we've watched, right?

Next scene, ongoing discussions about things like star wars where like, you know, people will totally geek out. And yet, you know, you'll ask them something about what they learned in history and they probably learned about in history like four times in school, right? Like elementary school, couple of top, right. And there'll be like luck and smart people, right? Cause you have no attachment to that information. It didn't come as a story. So what we do is when we're creating our stories, right? Not If we do what we promise in our book buyer legends that you can do in 90 minutes. But if you're creating a proper persona, not just a perspective, okay, you're creating, you want to creating memorable character with the characteristics of somebody who's making that decision because a really well-formed character cannot do things contrary to account, right? Yeah, absolutely. We all know how dineros would act, right? Like we knew what was in character and what was not.

And so you can write something that doesn't fit. That's the really clearly important part that makes what we do actionable, not just because we like to emphasize to some people that we'll take that and we'll create a modeling language out of, have the starting that we create out of the buyer legend. And there they can go ahead and you know, basically identify as points in the story where you might be able to measure, right? And that's, you know but in an overarching way, we find that when people see the characters, right, they remember them. And that's the critical part, right, is having a real feel for the client. And it's, you know, like we have all sorts of things about how people use personas, but like they make them stereotypes sometimes and make them unlikeable characters, legitimately unlikable. Okay. Sherlock Holmes is a bit of an ass.

Okay. Right? Like if you look at the equivalent character in, you know, in house like obnoxious, that has to be a reason, the tone like him, you have to understand what makes it wrong, right? So if you're writing characters who are somewhat angry or upset or you have to give them a situation, some place to anchor the empathy so that people can say, oh, okay, this happened way before I got on. Right. And this is what they're really saying to me. This is why it's coming out the wrong way. Right. we have a customer that felt like it was a long term, long sales cycle. I think that at this point I can identify the client. They sold gamma knives there for brain surgery. Right. But yeah, way more than 10 years ago. So it's okay to say this, but one of the things is that their sales people felt like they were being attacked by the finance people.

Okay. and we had to just take them back and say, well, here's the job. Here are the pressures. And we did it by creating these good personas and telling the stories in know, distinctly different ways. And none of those facts would move to them. I mean, they knew that the CFO's job was to protect the money, but we put it within context and all the decisions that they had to make. And this was brain surgery literally, right? Like people say, oh, that's rocket science. No, no, no. This was brain surgery. These people did not understand why in that time their competitor was Varian. Which made knives that were similar tools that were less expensive but not as specialized and not as bad. Right. And

I can tell you today what the difference since I remember it, then I could actually parrot back the difference, but right. How do you get if nobody, but in neurosurgery really understands the difference, right? You have to be patient and you have to let the neuro surgeons speak and you have to let that go out. And so we actually change how they handle their sales cycle. But here's the most important part. Their sales cycle really never got to a point where there would be a decision until finance people got into it. And at that point, right where, where it was kind of unusual, we basically cookied it, right? And we, because we were putting PDFs for download, like here's the information once that that finance department have actually downloaded the piece of information, that's when the sales started like, yeah, fuck you. You know, cause we're talk about pipeline, right? You're not in the pipeline as anything. But I don't remember there they had a weird lead scoring lead scoring thing, but you were not a you are not in that quarter's pipeline. I know all from, from a possible close, if there hadn't been a financial review anyway. I know. I, I don't even remember what question it started.

Well, I mean I think, I think the story is totally relevant because if I remember the original question correctly, it's about like, you know, how, why is it that something like cro is a standalone tactic isn't, isn't as interesting anymore. And I mean, I think this story really paints a clear picture cause you're looking at, you're looking at this challenge, your client's challenge really holistically and bringing in so many other tools. It's not just, you know, there, there is an analytical component and you are looking at the sales cycle and you're employing storytelling and buyer personas, but you're coming from so many different angles.

I want to give your, your, your B to B audience perspective. So I would love that. It's all people, right? There's always people, there's never companies don't buy from and it's always emotional, right? Well, no, the fear, the emotion comes from processing the logic. There's a joy in processing the logic. So yes, but it's, that's a you know, that's like soup, man. You're right. This, it's okay to delegate. And yet nobody can make a decision without the emotion triggering your prefrontal cortex. Okay. But you know, that's, that's fascinating. Whole different discussion, but they get joy from that, from like literally that, that makes them get enough emotion.

But from B2B side, right, people's expectations are no longer set by anybody. So you know, by their competitors reading by You, right? People expect shipping as fast as Amazon. Okay. I had a retail client in San Francisco and one of the first times I walked in, I watched somebody taking messages off the machine and I said, well, how, how long do you take to bond? And they said well, we try and do it within the day. And I said, do you realize that we're here like close to market street that I could literally have several trucks full of merchandise deliver within an hour to the whole store. What makes you think that customers don't expect that? Right. I mean, where we are in the heart of Silicon Valley, right? Like this is what people expect. And you know, they expect the seamlessness of maneuver, right?

We looked at their expectations haven't been set by your industry. Right? They've been set by what you're already doing. But I like to remind people, and I'll often put a really fine picture into a presentation that I think 70 something presented. I remember the number usually not have a visual aid that helps you remember the number, but 70 something percent of people saying that they use their smart phones on the toilet. Okay. And that whatever beautiful thing they just designed or website or right. That somebody is literally looking at it on the toilet. Okay. And that, that is part of your customer journey, right? Like, Oh God, why we stopped reading? Well, why don't we skip, I don't know. So, but it's t e humanizes this, right? Because we thought absolutely meetings and people ready to do things. And very often in B to B sales, especially c if I told you let's go buy a house.

If you want to ask before you have some expectation of what old cake, right? But the first time you buy a house, you have no expectation of what that could be. It's, it's really like, it's overwhelming in a way. You didn't do match. But in businesses, when we, when we have a great solution, right? And I, and I love, I love hearing people who's gastric bathroom solution, but solutions in search of a problem kind of makes sense. But most problems are not in search of a solution, right? There's a certain amount of status quo. There are people vested in that status quo. There is a certain amount of the blind spots that we talk about, right? They just don't seem that they have this problem, right? And they don't really want to see your badness problem. And so we're so focused on, on our solution, right, that we don't even realize that even if they realized there was a problem, they don't know how to make the decision.

Right. Right. How do you get there? What if somebody is in danger of losing their job or position or like there's so much more that goes into that process, right? And so how buyers buy, especially in business, the business is way more complex, right? We talk about complexity of sales and the most important dynamic, cause you can talk about knowledge, risk and need, right? But the most important one is consensus, right? And there's different levels. What need for consensus. Right? If I go to the airport, right? And I have a truck that bar, okay, that's a problem. Individual choice. I didn't understand that. It has no calories if you do that. Okay.

But Troy says start narrowing themselves right after that there's very few individual choices. Okay. Well Jeffrey, it looks like we're frozen. Are you going to wear that right wing? Just Bros? I lost you for like a couple of seconds right after the candy bar. Right after. Oh and I kinda, you're kind of frozen again. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Can you hear me? I'm going to say I can hear you just fine. Oh, there we go. Okay. You're back. We would just win. So I was explaining consensus, right? So if I put on the shirt and my wife said to me, are you going to wear that shirt? Right? It's no individual. And it goes on and on. And complexity is really about how many people need to agree. Right? So buying a house has, think about complexity. B To B sales involve a lot of people by the nature of them. But


Yeah, they were an extended family reunion, right? So the, these things are not peculiar to B2B, right? Except the B2B has consensus as an issue that you must consider.

Absolutely. That's so important. And I think that's one of the reasons why, tell me if you agree, it's so important to be able to identify everyone who's involved in those purchase decisions. And if that,

Not my role,

Not by role right now

Cause they have every CFO is the same or [inaudible] but by the foreseeable personality types.

Okay. So let's talk about that and actually we're running out of time, which is just, I'm like Kinda devastated. So maybe we'll have you back on to keep talking about this, but let's jump to, I'm actually going to skip one question. Where usually ask about challenges, you know, t tell us about some challenges. You already kind of did that. But I would love to know if you can, you can share with the best piece of business advice that you've ever received.


It's, it's so early. And, and, and, and at this point I realized how significant it is. But it was one of my first bosses who just said so I was working for one of my dad's friends. I was like 16. And they had a leather company, right. They would import leather from Argentina, they would tan it, diet members love it. And I was commenting on something I didn't like and I remember it was a much older man, right? He's in the 70s and I'm really young and he just said to me, you know, and he said it just like this nobody gives a shit what you like. Okay. For every one of these things that's a customers, it's about what they like you have to remove yourself. Yeah. Like it was shocking and so offensive, but I never forgot it. Right. Because I was always like this precocious, really smart kid and it was the

You know, lots of people will like put a boot on you and you've gotta grin and bear it, but he was so right. Right. He was so, yeah, I didn't, I wouldn't want to, he's going to buy it. I didn't have money. You buy it. Shut him. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I mean I need to remind myself of this all the time and we all have really strong opinions, especially executives, right? Have really strong opinions about what this should be like. And you know, how the product should work and what the most important features are. And that is just, it's golden, it doesn't matter. No.

Well remember there's a Bain study, right? Where are they? Where they talk about something called the delivery gap. Are you familiar with it? Yeah,

I was thinking of a different Bain study. Okay. So let, yeah, let's talk about the delivery gap.

Yes. How customer centric 80% say, yeah, we're, we're customer centric cause they went to their customers ask a question 8% dude. Right? So they call that a delivery gap. I like to joke it really, they should have called it tragic. Just tracker. Has he been caught bullying cognitive biases that we have if we matter, right? As you resolve what in our thinking by design [inaudible] okay. I love talking about and studying cognitive biases, but there's a million reasons why we're wrong. Right? And we're wrong way more often than we're right. Including me. Right when I say and so, you know, it's not hard if you understand cognitive biases to go looking for blind spots that people create for themselves. But it's possible for you to see your own blind spot. It's the nature of the thing.

That's why it's called a blind spot. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Man. That's good. That's some excellent business advice. I wish we could keep going, but I have to, we have to wrap up for now. So I would love to know, is there a business resource, like a book

Know I've referred to it a bunch of times, be like that and feel like Amazon who books. The, the most updated pages that we have right now are buyer legends.com. And Brian eisenberg.com, which is, which we built a long time ago. We left our agency, we rank more people were searching for Bryan for our company name. And so we built up our our consulting work. So it's still there, but both of those fresh resources.

Amazing. Okay. So I'll make sure to link to those. I in a, if, if someone's watching this on youtube, it'll be in the description box. That'll be on the blog. And then just in wrapping up, so if someone wants to get in touch with you, how can they do that?

I mean, Facebook, Twitter, linkedin, call numbers, social media. Yeah, we have, I mean, like we're not hard to reach and we're also way more open than most people expect. I'm willing to have our conversation with just about anybody. It doesn't mean not that we'll necessarily do business, but I love to meet new people and, and learn what their issues are. And, you know, it just the things I learned most often are from like random calls, random people.

Oh my God, I absolutely love it. Well, I'm so glad you took my call today. Thank you so, so much for coming on and sharing all of this and, and seriously, I'd love to have you back. So you know,

Well, why not my brother who has a slightly different perspective on some of this similar issues. Okay, perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I, I mean, I, not that I wouldn't love to be back, but Brian is usually the one on interviews and easier, usually the front person.

No kidding. Okay. Well we'll definitely have him on that if he's up for it. So, again, Jeffrey, thank you again and looking forward, hopefully to next time.

Terrific. Thank you. Okay**.**

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