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E14: Think Like an Outsider with Bryan Eisenberg


Show Notes

Our guest today is best-selling author and internationally recognized authority and pioneer in online marketing, Bryan Eisenberg.
Bryan and his brother Jeffrey Eisenberg are the pioneers of frameworks like Persuasion Architecture and CRO that most marketers use in their work every day.
Today, Bryan is actually talking about thinking like an OUTSIDER, a mindset that is even more relevant today than when we recorded this episode, so it's worth a listen for anyone still recalibrating from the tectonic shifts of the last several weeks:
✅Mindset shifts to help ANY company remove friction from sales
✅Bryan and Jeffrey's strategic reading list (hint: it's TOTALLY unexpected)
✅Real examples of outsiders disrupting industries with outside-the-box thinking


Bryan Eisenberg is an internationally recognized authority and pioneer in online marketing, improving conversion rates, persuasive content and persona marketing, and helping organizations improve their customer experiences. He is the co-founder of BuyerLegends and the co-author of the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, USA Today and New York Times bestselling books “Call to Action”, “Waiting For Your Cat to Bark?”, “Always Be Testing”, “Buyer Legends” and “Be Like Amazon: Even a Lemonade Stand Can Do It“. Bryan is also the co-founder and Chairman Emeritus of the Web Analytics Association (now the Digital Analytics Association).

Bryan serves as an advisory board member of  several venture capital backed startup companies (e.g., Bazaarvoice, UserTesting.com, Sightly, BoostMedia, AllClearID, WelcomeCommerce, OneSpot etc.), and Host of the Business Travel Hacks podcast. He has been a featured expert by publications like The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, quoted in Business 2.0, CXO Europe, Advertising Age, CNN, Forrester Research, Inc Magazine, Entrepreneur, and MarketingSherpa for his thought leadership in the critical area of internet marketing and improving online conversion rates.



One Percent Better Project: https://bit.ly/2QToE6S

Be Like Amazon: https://amzn.to/2ut1VWN











Speaker 2: (00:07)
welcome or welcome back to insider insights, timely and relevant insights from B2B insiders. I'm your host Moore McCann and today we have special guests, Brian Eisenberg on the show. Brian is the cofounder of buyer legends and the CO author of the Wall Street Journal and New York Times bestselling books called the action waiting for your cat to bark, always be testing and buyer legends. The executive storyteller's guide. Brian is an advisory board member for several venture back startups, keynote speaker at hundreds of events across the globe and is also the cofounder and chairman emeritus of the web analytics association. He's been a featured expert by the Wall Street Journal and New York Times and been quoted by media companies and publications like advertising, age, CNN, Forrester Research, inc magazine and many, many more. Uh, if you are in marketing or in sales or how you do business on the Internet, you most certainly have been impacted by the work of Brian and his brother Jeffrey, who was also on the show. So with that, I am so excited to welcome Brian Eisenberg to insider insights. Brian, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Great. So it's really so exciting to have you on. I've given really a brief intro relative to what you've been up to in the industry for quite some time. So, um, why don't you share with us a little bit more about your background, your role, and what you're up to now?

Speaker 3: (01:37)
Sure. So, um, I've been in the, um, well professionally in the optimization space since, uh, early to mid nineties. Uh, in 1998, my brother and I started the first conversion rate optimization agency called future. Now, uh, we had started, um, a publication back then, a podcast. Um, you know, we, we were early birds kind of in all of this. Um, and we were the first people really to pioneer the science of conversion rate optimization online. You know, back then, um, you know, we were kind of, today we take it for granted. There were, there was no thing like Google analytics. We were basically doing, um, analysis on, on sites through a log files and using excel to go through them. It was, it was brutal. Um, uh, metrics like, um, um, uh, bounce rate didn't exist. Um, you know, basically my friend Jim Nova and I'm, when we wrote the market is common sense guide to the metrics in late 2000, early 2001, we're the first person, first people to come up with that term. We, we, we looked at metric a seem to correlate this stuff. And so we really just tried giving people a sense of, okay, how, how do we build things to give people a better experience and not only to have a better experience, but for, for that four letter word. Yeah. We were talking about, um, uh, online seems to be in a very

Speaker 2: (03:00)
dirty word back when we first got started to which was to create a sale. Okay.

Speaker 3: (03:05)
Because when the, if you remember back to the early nineties and late nineties, it was really about eyeballs and traffic and the new economy and you know, the sock puppet was, can change anything. If you wrote any kind of business plan, you were getting funded. And we were saying the emperor had no clothes, right? They weren't creating any sales. Uh, and I think, you know, fast forward now, almost two and a half decades, obviously with the rise of Amazon, it's why we wrote our last book called be like Amazon, um, is to really understand how the marketplace has, has shifted. Um, a lot of the things that we wrote in our books about how like in winter you cut the power car, the customer's in control of their buying experience. Again, it was kind of new there, but today we all kind of take it for granted. Um, you know, road always be testing. Again, you know, how to apply that data and how to create better customer experiences with it. Um, and today we're fascinated more with understanding how cultures, people, processes, systems, technology, uh, impact the customer experience and ultimately impact sales.

Speaker 2: (04:08)
Fantastic. Um, you know, I am in the middle of a reading. I am in the middle of waiting for your cat to bark. Um, it's fantastic and I know that there's a lot in that book that really, um, was relevant maybe, you know, several years ago. Um, but it's still relevant today. And as I'm reading back, I'm going through and I'm going, Whoa, you really hit the nail on the head. I mean, you, you guys saw the writing on the wall and, um, we're so on point with, with what you're writing about in that book and I'm sure, um, your other books as well. So what, you know, is there anything going on today? What, what are, what are the predictions today for maybe five, 10 years from now?

Speaker 3: (04:54)
You know, I think we've hit, um, an interesting point in the development of the Internet and of social media. Uh, the,

Speaker 2: (05:05)

Speaker 3: (05:05)
the wildly different things have not [inaudible] happened anymore. Um, it's not a big surprise because if you think about and understand the development of communication systems over the years, right? We go from know words imprint, right, digital or physical, it doesn't matter. From there we go to audio, right? And then from there we go to video. That's it. There's nothing left after that. And if you watch the evolution of where we are, even with social media, okay, great. You know, Twitter started, everybody was able to start putting your words in print. You know, Facebook started, we started being able to, you know, engage a little bit more, a lot more than the messenger apps and all that. So we started getting a lot more of that going on. And now we're seeing obviously with snapchat and Instagram and Instagram stories and all that, that the, the video component is there for everybody.

Speaker 3: (05:52)
So in that respect, the technology's kind of caught up with, um, the big, uh, revolution of the Internet. I don't think I, like I said, they're there. Obviously we're still going to advance, but it's not going to be wildly different than we are now. And I think now the biggest struggle is, um, w w what we call the blind spots, the re the revenue blind spots where every organization [inaudible] is struggling in four key areas. A, they struggle to keep up with customer expectations, right? Their expectations of their customers exceeding the reality of their business today. Uh, every customer today is expecting the communication styles of Zappos. They're expecting the customer service of a Disney or a Ritz Carlton. Uh, you know, obviously to scale, but you know, but it's important in saying that they're expecting the speed and efficiency of an Amazon and they're expecting the seamlessness of an experience like, like an Uber or Lyft, right?

Speaker 3: (06:49)
So when you have that, that, and you're not meeting what the customer expects because whether it's in B to B or B to c, that's the reality of what they, what they see today. And they expected across every industry. Um, they struggle to do this. The second revenue blind spot is, you know, we're struggling with the, um, with our current tech stacks. We basically would have what I like to call kind of, um, uh, systemic, uh, growing pains, right? What systems goddess are there beforehand. Don't necessarily scale for us at the next level. Whether it's in creating that content, whether it's, you know, delivering service, whether it's, uh, you know, meeting expectations, whatever it is that those systems, those policies that we had used to work. Um, the third one is that, you know, uh, dealing with customers, um, everybody in the organization today needs to be frontline and everyone needs to be power the same way Jeff Bezos will get on the phones, um, you know, once a year or, or once every other year, um, to answer customer service calls.

Speaker 3: (07:53)
And he believes every executive should do that. I think we need in more companies and more so everyone does have that power because if we're stuck where only managers can make decisions in a world that people expect immediate responses to, um, we're setting ourselves up for failure today. Um, and so you can't leave, um, uh, authority just to, uh, the hippos, right? That the highest pay people's opinions. It really needs to be, uh, distributed everywhere. And, uh, it used to be a challenge when we didn't have the communications and the data and the metrics that we do have accessible today, but there's no reason why we shouldn't have a more, um, systems that allow us to do that. And that leads us to the last revenue growing pains, which is why I started the web analytics association in the first place. Uh, but we're at a different point because that was 15 years ago, which is today we're just inundated with data and information coming at us from every direction. And unfortunately, most of it's not to proper action. We're not leading to doing good stuff every day to improve our business. And, uh, [inaudible] it's hard to keep up with the demands of today's customers. I mean we are expecting immediate fast delivery. Uh, we, I've got some great stories I can share on that, but I, I think that's an important part for people to realize they've got to manage, uh, today getting through those blind spots in order to hit that next level of growth.

Speaker 2: (09:23)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, okay, well thank you for sharing those. And maybe, maybe later in this interview, I'm not sure we'll have a chance to, you know, go into those in further detail. Cause I think that, I think a topic like revenue blind spots is something that it's very relevant and everyone wants to hear about. We know that we have them, but we don't know what they are. That's why they're blind spots. So, um, yeah, so it's a, it's a great topic. Um, you know, Brian, I know you're incredibly busy. You have it, you always have a lot going on. Um, what is one thing that, um, you're most excited about right now?

Speaker 3: (10:02)
Wow, what am I most excited about? Um, it's a little bit of a, of a side project, kind of where my passions kind of over lie. Um, so I, I've always been a big sports enthusiast. I have a, I have three kids. My daughter is off to a ut Austin right now. She's just starting. Um, she's, she's, she's headed there to mccomb's business school, but my middle one is an athlete and very passionate about baseball. And, uh, you know, I grew up playing but only recreationally and over the last few years, as you know, and that was 14, you know, he's probably about nine years old. I realized that he's going to get better than I ever was. And so again, through the power of social media and the Internet, I, I became friends with some great coaches in the world. Um, I spent a lot of time really trying to understand the impact and the, um, the adoption of analytics in the baseball world and how it impacts business.

Speaker 3: (11:02)
There's a lot of parallels between if you're a baseball fan, looking at what the Astros and Dodgers have done over the last number of years and what the Yankees are starting to do and what Amazon has done in terms of a culture, in terms of how to bring that analytics culture, that innovative culture, that agility that other teams seem to lack. Yeah. And, uh, as a side project, I'm working with, uh, one of those coaches. My, my friend Bobby tewksbary, um, on a platform to, uh, basically changed the way baseball development occurs. I can't say much more than that, but it's a little bit of a side project, but, but it's, it's a lot of the same lessons. It's about understanding what inputs go into creating great outcomes later on. Uh, and it's a massive data issue that nobody has a clear idea on yet, but, but it needs to be solved.

Speaker 2: (11:55)
Yeah. Wow. That, uh, I'm so excited that you brought this up. Um, it was totally unexpected, right? Um,

Speaker 3: (12:03)
well, I knew that it was something my brother would never say, so I needed to go.

Speaker 2: (12:09)
Right, right. But if it's the same time, I think it's still so relevant to so many of the things that we're talking about. I mean, what we're talking about in this, this side project, it's really, it's innovative. It's, it's, um, you know, I've been listening a lot recently to different talks and, um, and kind of overviews of this, this concept of outsiders. There's the book, um, I forget who the author is. I, it's it, I haven't read it yet, but the idea is that the most innovative, I'm successful disruptors or outsiders to their industry because you come in and you're not, you're not looking

Speaker 3: (12:49)
no preconceived notion.

Speaker 2: (12:51)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So can you, can you maybe talk a little bit more about how that concept applies to this project?

Speaker 3: (12:58)
So, um, there's a, there's a book that just came out called the MVP machines, but it just, it just was a bestselling book this past week, and it talks and chronicles the tale of a number of athletes who've made that decision to train using data like Trevor Bauer from the Indians and all of that. And there's a whole section there talking about how, you know, he is not the most athletic guy. Like, you know, he's not the guy who's going to lift the most. He's not the guy who can, who can vertical jump the highest. It's just not him. But he's, he's made himself into a truly remarkable picture because of his innovative use of high-speed cameras and data that other people have been scared to use. And of course, uh, they also mentioned, um, fellow Brooklyn born New York, Yankee Pitcher, Adam out of Vino, um, who's also has his own little lab in New York City that, where he's doing a lot of these same things.

Speaker 3: (13:52)
And I, and I'm listening to the story and I'm, and I'm going through it and I'm like, okay, you know, my son, he's always been passionate. He's probably, you know, he's somewhat talented, but he's never going to be the most athletic kid out there. But how do I get him on an even playing field? And how do I, how do I give him the best that I can based on the knowledge I have? And so what originally got me very excited into the space is that there were new iot measuring devices. Okay. And so the first thing was a tool that allowed you to measure, um, how, um, how people are swinging their bat, how fast and what angles they're using and all that. And I started saying, wow, okay, so now you're talking about my world. I understand how to use data and prove things better than any baseball player probably ever has because they've never had to do that for 20 years.

Speaker 3: (14:35)
Like I have. This is just new to them. And so it was my conversations with Bobby who understands the swing probably better than just about anybody on the planet. And we're sharing these back and forth and we're both prompting each other too, to really think of the world differently and, and, and innovative things about how to approach that data. How do you teach with that data? How to influence people with it and new new ways to, to train people with it. And I think the same is true in business, right? Um, you know, it's like you said, it's rarely that person from inside your industry who, who disrupts it. And we were just talking before the show, you know, I have a friend of mine who's about to disrupt the cleaning products industry, right? A company named Truman's. And so John and Alex and Alex, you know, from Truman's, they come from big ass fans.

Speaker 3: (15:27)
It's a B2B fan company, but they're different. They're a little bit more interesting. And they, they just looked at the problem differently. It's like, of course they're doing, you know, there's been ways to do, you know, um, uh, you know, these, uh, what do you call it? Um, concentrated formulas and do, but the current companies don't feel a need to change cause they're making tons of money and success often breeds lack of innovation. And we've seen this in every industry. Um, you know, as we sit here recording on a, uh, on a platform for uh, for, you know, meeting online, um, I can't tell you how many years, um, and how many different platforms we have consulted for in this space who are no longer in the market leaders. Um,

Speaker 2: (16:14)

Speaker 3: (16:16)
And a lot of it was that the culture could not see where the innovation was coming from and how things were changing. And so when you start bringing that outside your perspective, you start being open to saying, hey, there's more to learn. It's, it's one of the main reasons Jeffrey and I don't read a lot of business books because we don't want to be in our own little echo chamber of hearing people say the same things. It's so we'll take things from science fiction. I think there's a lot to learn from, from the way you know, you know, science fiction writers view how the future of the world will look like and the future of technology. Um, like I said, I take stuff from coaching because at the end of the day working with clients and, and working with people, it's about understanding people. Um, you know, I come from a social work background, not a business background. Jeffrey Jeffrey had the business background. No kidding. So I was studying to be a social worker and everything we do is always about understanding why people do the things they do. And I always like to say, you know, if you can persuade a paranoid schizophrenia to take their medications and shower and eat properly, um, you could probably persuade anyone in the world to do anything.

Speaker 2: (17:22)
I love that. That's fantastic. Um, and so I think this, this concept also, you can apply it on a more micro level, not just within industries, but, um, you know, you talk about this idea, um, in, in waiting for your cat to bark about being inside the bottle. And so what you're talking about there is about how organizations are just so wrapped up in, you know, in what's going on internally that they forget to talk to their customers and you know, to their buyers and, and find out what's going on. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 3: (17:58)
Yeah, it's, it's even more than that. Um, you know, it's funny cause you know, a lot of people told us when we released Winfrey cut the bark that it's nine books in one. It's, it's, there's, there's a lot of different messages in there and, and that one concept is I think a chip and Dan Heath did a great job talking about it. It's really a curse of knowledge, right? Whatever your industry, whatever business you're in, how many hours a week do you spend thinking about solving the product? The problem. But you do forties a minimum, right? If you're in any kind of technology companies, probably closer to 50 60 some even 80 hours. Okay. How long does your customer think about buying your solution?

Speaker 2: (18:42)

Speaker 3: (18:44)
An hour to, you know, maybe a couple of weeks.

Speaker 3: (18:48)
And so their perspective is completely different than yours. And you do, you have that curse of knowledge because you've been drinking your own wine for so long that you don't know what the label says anymore. Right. And you don't know whether it got scratched up and, and, and that's where the revenue blind spots come in. Right. And so it's really critical to work from that customer's perspective. Uh, and it's why we've always, you know, started using, uh, persona models since wow. Uh, you know, our first book, uh, which was persuasive online copywriting and, but that we wrote in 2001. It doesn't use the word personas, but it uses a lot of the similar concepts. We adapted that word a little later on, but I, I think it's really critical to, to take the point of view that different people look at your information, look at your product, look at their need differently than the way you do. And again, if you don't take that outside perspective, you're going to struggle to sell to them effectively.

Speaker 2: (19:44)
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Um, so, um, you just shared a lot of exciting highlights. Um, I, I'm delighted that the baseball project came up because I think that's a little bit different than what we normally, you know, hear about, but still totally relevant. So now I'm wondering if you can take us into a challenge. This is another question that I'm asked all of my guests, this could be a challenge that you recently encountered in your own business or that it could be something you're working on with a client to take us into this challenge and describe, describe how you came up with the solution.

Speaker 3: (20:27)
So, you know, I think this is the challenge we've, you know, we've had ourselves and we see this with just about just about every company and the struggle to see the world differently than where you're at, right? And it's just kind of that same thing. It's like how do you get another person's perspective? And depending on where you are in a company, you have different perspectives of the customers. And we were working with a very, very large multinational, I'll give you a specific example. And, um, the engineers and the product people were always taught. Um, you know, it's part of the culture that never underestimate the intelligence of their customers is great. It's a lot of respect for the customers. Meanwhile, the marketing people and the customer service people have to deal with the customers. And there, there was a, a physical example sitting on the poster board of um, uh, one of the vps that basically showed that maybe the customer isn't as sophisticated as we thought they were.

Speaker 3: (21:36)
But the problem was that the engineer's still thought one thing. The markers had another end. The worlds didn't, they couldn't reconcile it as much as they want it to, to do it. They didn't have a way just center around it. Okay. And, uh, the, the concept of using personas for us didn't come from like the software design world. I mean, a lot of people know personas from like Alan Cooper is the inmates are running the asylum and stuff like that. But for us it actually came, um, thanks to our friend David Freeman, who's now an executive at Fox studios, he was one of the top screenwriters. And he wrote a book about emotional sharing and it was also about how to create emotions and video games and stuff like that and said, how do you, how do you make characters that people can relate to? And we realize that there's a, there's an internal narrative depending on where you are in the company that you tell yourself about your business, about your customers, about your product every single day.

Speaker 3: (22:35)
And it may not be aligned with others in the same organization as well as with the customers, the current customers and the new customers. I mean, look, here's the simple example, right? Tell you know, cell phones [inaudible] if you're a new, a new customer of company x, um, you know, with whichever carrier you have a different perception of them, Ben Current customers and the deals that you get, we know that that's absolutely, absolutely, that's a problem. That in itself is where we start seeing friction start showing up. Okay. So w we've got that friction point to how, how do we, how do we reconcile this? And so what we realized, and this is this is the bit probably the biggest lesson we learned and the reason I believe Jeff Bezos is probably, um, as a Warren Buffett's as the best CEO out there is he realized he had to keep an organization that was agile, that was customer centric, that was driven by data. But how do you align all these stories? How does he keep the world's oldest startup mentality inside this large organization? Okay. And his sheer brilliance was using, they call their six page memos that start from the end point. And those memory memos are taken from the point of view of the customer.

Speaker 2: (23:53)

Speaker 3: (23:53)
And so all we did is we wrote the narratives with documentation from what we saw in the data, what we saw in the call center with real examples that everybody could point to and be like, no, no. That's where we're telling this part of the story from. This is not something we made up. And we started sharing it throughout the organization. And slowly the engineers are like, okay, you know what? I need to, I need to actually use the product that they had never used the product before.

Speaker 2: (24:20)
Yes, yeah. At the monies. And how, how kind of common that is that that practices

Speaker 3: (24:28)
and so all of a sudden everyone started getting aligned and that accounted for like a ridiculous optimization level because what happened was the team that was struggling to even do any kind of experiments, all of a sudden we're getting people saying, wow, I can see different ways to do that based on reading this narrative. We may want to do it that way or that, let me give you a couple of different versions of creative, cause they'd go to the creative team and asking for variations and couldn't get anything. MMM. And now the creative people were volunteering multiple options. I don't know which is going to be the best. Right. Because they were reading it from this narrative. And we found that to really be, um, as Jeffrey and I went back after we left our agency and started going back to all of our successful clients, what they all took that made them successful in future, uh, in their future careers as, as they progressed was taking that narrative, those personas and sharing it within the organization. And that literally changed the culture of how, of how, you know, they, they looked at things and you know, uh, on day to day basis

Speaker 2: (25:27)
such an amazing success story. And really, I mean, can you, can you just tell us more about this narrative? It sounds to me like this is, it's kind of like an empathy mapping exercise.

Speaker 3: (25:38)
It is a little bit like an empathy mapping. Yeah. We use a lot of different techniques. So you know, j Jeff Bezos and Amazon has, you know, way of doing it. They have a six page thing and we're not stuck on the six page or two page. I don't think that part of it matters. What he's saying is okay, you know, it's a shortcut for being thorough. Right. And there's rumors of him throwing out memos at missing commas and he says, a few misses kindle. What else did you miss? We don't have to be that crazy about things. Um, there's, there's a number of steps that we do. So as we said, the first thing we'll do is we start from the perspective of the customer, right? And understand what the goal is that they're trying to achieve, uh, and, and work our way from the end backwards.

Speaker 3: (26:18)
And so we'll do a, um, a, um, uh, a premortem. First of all, it's identify all the possible things that can go wrong. Where's all the friction? We're all the points where they may not have enough motivation to go to the next step. And it's by balancing those two key things. Friction and motivation keeps what we call the persuasive momentum through the experience. Once we've identified all those things, now we'll start doing an outline. And again, starting from the reverse, going forward and as you're reading Wayfair cut the bark, you'll actually hear us talking about the process of persuasion architecture [inaudible] back then. We would do it from you. Start at the beginning of work to the end. That's been the biggest change in our thinking over the last decade, which is what we found when we went to go work for a, for Google for a couple of years. They wanted the process a little more agile.

Speaker 3: (27:06)
What we found is going mapping things forward, left people to open. Okay. And it took much longer to do where if you start at the end point, okay, if I need everybody to leave me a five star review at a restaurant, right? What do I need to do going backwards? And I think about step by step by step by step and I can get to a finite point. And so that's, that's a big part of what we did. So once we outlined it backwards, now we go through a narrative writing technique. And again, we've got all kinds of things that we do to make the narrative a little bit better and stuff like that. And we coach teams to do that. But that narrative has to define the metrics. It has to, you know, tie into, you know, the data that we found in other places, the evidence that we have so that the team can get around it. Atlanta, it's about executing and just optimizing based on that and the assumptions that we had in there.

Speaker 2: (27:58)
Yeah. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that process. Um, you know, the, the challenge that you described at this,

Speaker 3: (28:06)

Speaker 2: (28:07)
The company that you're working with is something that I think is so relatable to so many companies, especially in B2B because that customer centricity, um, just the whole concept of that is still, it's still kind of slowly emerging. I think that so many companies have jumped on the bandwagon and it's a nice idea in theory, but in practice we're still trying to figure out how to do it. So would you have any advice for, um, peers in B2B at companies or consultants who are

Speaker 3: (28:41)
experiencing the same issues? So here's the first one, and you know, um, my brother and I just purchased a solution that we needed for a, a new client that we're kicking off next week. Okay. And we went ahead and we, uh, subscribed to the, to, to the platform that we needed. Um, you know, did some testing, make sure it's working the way we need it to work. And it's now been,

Speaker 4: (29:06)
uh, probably about two weeks.

Speaker 3: (29:10)
We haven't really used it much since there's been no effort other than I think of one or two little canned emails to be sent to us. And here's the thing, there is infinite amount of value to be taken by asking people across the company to call new [inaudible] customers within that first month, even within that first week and to ask, Hey, thank you for joining us. How's it going? Have you gotten, is it doing what you needed to do? Is there something you need some help with? Um, just getting some of us and starting to ask them a little bit about how did you finally decide to choose US versus our competitors? And we really want to thank you for it. And the knowledge that they would gain the experience that they would gain the frustrations, they'd understand the friction points that their customers are having, that they'd be able to start telling them because we had one feature that it took me hours to figure out how to finally get it working.

Speaker 3: (30:13)
But if someone would have taken the time, they probably would have been, oh yeah, well you need to do is this and that and my, my feelings around the company would completely change. Yes, I solved it, but at, at a cost of friction and time that I didn't need to have where if they called and they learned that and I knew, oh, there are customers like me who do this for this reason and are willing to pay more for the solution because it has this one feature. Well, maybe we need to market this a little bit differently. And right now it's a blind spot. They don't even know.

Speaker 2: (30:46)
Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Um, that I think that's, that's such great advice and it's something that, um, I've noticed a lot of and it's, it's a huge frustration that it's kind of, it's almost painful, the idea of talking to customers. So I mean, I see companies like all the time, absolutely anything, you know, they bend over backwards to do anything but actually pick up the phone and talk to customers. Um,

Speaker 3: (31:14)
yeah, cause we want, we want to do, you know, uh, you know, uh, one-on-one emails and marketing automation surveys - pick up the phone. Right? It's like right. There's, it's invaluable to get to speak to people. Absolutely valuable. I mean, I, and the, so the best part, we will come back to the, you know, Truman for a moment, if you go online and you messaged them, and I'm gonna Challenge you to do this in a few minutes when we get off, cause you're, you're, you're, you're not in the United States and you want to know whether this ship abroad, but it's not obvious from their website. Send them a tweet and watch the interaction that you get from the founders of the company. Okay. And I promise you that as the company keeps scaling and growing, that will never disappear because they understand it from a cultural perspective. It's about people, no matter what technology you sell, we are trying to help [inaudible]

Speaker 2: (32:09)
yes, absolutely. That's,

Speaker 3: (32:12)
and there's no, there's no, or even doing this like, you know, what does it take to get on a five minute zoom with somebody and say, Hey, I want to see how you're using it and see if we can find ways to make it better for you. Yeah, go. Thank you. What, like why wouldn't I, I almost never see that across any company. Um, and we've been doing this. Yeah. I think, I think our first SaaS was 23 years ago.

Speaker 2: (32:41)
Wow. So in your opinion, is it, does it take more time to do this approach or to kind of go with like the status quo approaches of the surveys and the emails and things of that nature?

Speaker 3: (32:53)
It's a risk reward issue. Right? Right. And I like having it distributed across the company. Ideally like at every level, whether you're in accounting, you should know your product, you should know the product, you should know enough about. And even if you don't know a particular question or an answer to a question, you can tell them, hey, I'm going to get somebody who's going to, who's going to be able to answer that question for you and I'll get back to you on that one. And that's okay. But to show people that you have a culture that cares truly about the customer across the company and what you can get to from those little nuggets of conversation and minding them, putting them into action and understanding why people chose you versus your competitors and what they were thinking when they were buying you priceless information. Like you know it, you know, they don't, they don't have to spend a good fortune on hiring someone like us to come help them improve sales when it stagnates. If they were doing that on a regular basis, they are. I just put myself out of business. So

Speaker 2: (33:53)
I think, and me too, because it's, I mean that's what we do is those buying insights. And those conversations. But I think you're absolutely right and I totally agree with you that, uh, you know, companies can start doing engaging in these processes themselves. Um,

Speaker 3: (34:09)
it doesn't mean that they don't need outside perspective once in awhile doing it, but like, that's, this is the most fundamental thing. Like, let's get back to understand that business is about solving people's problems. Yeah. Not Company problems. It's people inside company problems. It's still people, not a company that we're solving.

Speaker 2: (34:29)
Completely agree. Uh, so, and on that note, can you share the best business advice that you've ever received?

Speaker 3: (34:36)
Wow. There, there, there there's been a lot. We've been fortunate to have been a lot of, a lot of great, uh, mentors. Um, the one that keeps popping up the last few weeks, um, is whenever you give advice, uh, you have an option of two things. It's either got to be full fee or free. Don't never discount your advice and your wisdom and your experience, but there are people who can't afford it. And that's okay. If you, if you feel like you can help them, it's okay to give them stuff for free. Um, our mentor and Coauthor of, uh, of be like Amazon. Roy Williams did that for us when we first got started with our agency future now back in the days, um, and guided us. And I think, you know, we've come a long way since then, um, because obviously we couldn't pay his feedback then we, you know, we were barely scraping by money for totals at that point. It was painful. Um, but if you, if you've got knowledge, if you've got experience again, you know, share it either full, full fee or free.

Speaker 2: (35:42)
Wonderful. And thank you for, I guess taking that advice and sharing so much free advice with us today on this show. It's very much appreciated. Um, so with that, uh, is there a business resource? It could be a book, a podcast, a piece of technology that you're getting the most value out of right now?

Speaker 3: (36:04)
Sure. And it's funny enough, I listened to the host of this podcast on, I'm on someone else's podcast today who, um, is also the guest on my son's podcast that's releasing today. So we're going to keep this a little incestuous and around a family. Um, Joe Ferraro is a English teacher and a former baseball coach. Okay. Runs a podcast called the 1% better podcasts, 1% better project. Okay. And he interviews all kinds of people within business and, and um, uh, and you know, often people like Austin Cleon and he's invested, uh, interviewed, um, uh, Mike here. He's, here's another great book right from my friend Laura Gossner audit. Well, limitless. She was just a recent guest on there. Ton Tons of my friends have been on there every single episode. He's always trying to find ways to make you 1% better. And no matter what, whether you're a teacher, whether you're a programmer, you know, whether you're a marker, there's always something to gain from, from having Joe in your ear for an hour a week and sharing how you yourself can become 1% better. And I think it's something I've tried to live by my whole life as, as, as a professional optimizer, what I'm trying to do with my son, how, how do, how do we keep doing good stuff and making it better every single day.

Speaker 2: (37:29)
Wonderful. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that resource and I'll actually link it below. So anybody who's watching, if you're watching on youtube, you can find it in the description box or if you're watching on the site, um, I will include it in the notes, uh, under this video. So, um, that's fantastic. And now, Brian, if anyone in our audience today wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker 3: (37:51)
Uh, [inaudible] not hard to find a, you know, obviously linkedin. Um, you know, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram, uh, Facebook, uh, of course you can go to Brian eisenberg.com and, and, uh, O or buyer legends.com and, and, and reach out to us as well.

Speaker 2: (38:05)
Perfect. Okay. Well, Brian, this has been a fantastic interview. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show. Um, and for everyone who's watching today, thank you for joining and we will see you on the next episode of insider insights.

Speaker 5: (38:26)

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