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E15: Revenue in 20/20 with Udi Ledergor


Show Notes

Gong CMO, Udi Ledergor is this week's guest on Insider Insights and this interview is insights-packed from beginning to end!
Udi walks us through two levels of insight from Gong's unmatched repository of sales data and his 20+ years of experience throughout this conversation:
1) Sales advice for reps
✅ What your talk time ratio should be on a customer call
✅ How many discovery questions should you ask
✅ This is for everyone—write how you speak
2) Strategic advice for sales and marketing leaders
✅ How to get the attention and interest of high-level decision makers with messaging
✅ How to get budget when there is no line item for your solution
✅ Which time-tested messaging framework Gong uses
If you've ever been knocked down to lower level decision makers as a sales rep, needed to pivot in your messaging to show value and stay top of mind in the minds of decision makers, or want to learn more about Udi (like what he does in his spare time and why he's not on Twitter) don't miss this episode!
Udi Ledergor is the CMO at Gong and a 5-time VP Marketing with 20 years of industry experience heading world-class marketing teams for public and private companies in B2B tech and author of the #1 Amazon Best Seller - The 50 Secrets of Trade Show Success. 
Never Split the Difference: https://amzn.to/3aRRSuT
The 50 Secrets of Trade Show Success: https://amzn.to/34l3CUf
*Follow Udi on LinkedIn to see how his team at Gong is pivoting event strategy for #WFH


d the 50

secrets of trade show success,

50 secrets of trade show success. So I'll actually link that below, um, for anyone who's watching. Yeah. If they want to check it out. Um, great. Well, thank you for sharing it. That, uh, that introduction. Um, it's really interesting, you know, to see how you came into the role that you're in today. Um, which like you said, is a recent promotion to COO. Congratulations. Um, yeah. So, you know, great. Getting some insight into your background. Um, so now I, I'd love to transition into [inaudible]. What I'm always really excited to talk about with guests, which is [inaudible] one, one trend. Um, you know, or one big idea that's really exciting you the most right now.

Can I pick two? Uh, I think the one industry trend that I'm most excited about right now is to see how B2B marketing is taking a clear shift to look and walk and talk a lot more like B to C marketing. Um, we used to expect years ago that when companies like IBM or HP or Xerox talk down to us, it was done in a sort of condescending, authoritative way, always with a button up shirt and tie and suit and uh, everything was so authoritative and serious and uh, it just sounded having a professor or a skull that you and uh, and B to C, it was always about being conversational. And if someone wants to get you to buy some sugar and water in a can, they're going to be very conversational. And they're going to talk about not the horrible ingredients in the can, but more about how you're going to be so popular and be partying all day and jumping up and down mountains and all these great water cooler is exactly when you need them.

So it was about the lifestyle and being conversational and, and getting you excited. And in recent years we're seeing B2B catch up and B to B a finally started understanding that whether you're an insurance company or a tech company or it doesn't matter what you're selling, um, Bob is still sitting in his windowless office reading your email or watching your social, a broadcast right now and you can talk to him like those corporations talk to him 15 years ago. You have to talk to him like [inaudible] Coke vendor is talking to him. You have to talk to him like his toothpaste vendor talking to him. And uh, I find that really, really exciting that, that sort of, uh, mesh of B2B material with the B to C approach. That is so much more exciting and fun both to receive, definitely to receive, but also to create, because we're now talking directly to people. I'm talking to Lauren and not, Oh, this is a big company telling you what you need or what challenges you're going through. Let's just have a normal conversation. And that's what marketing is starting to look like and B2B today, which is super exciting to me. So that's, that's the industry trend I'm excited about. Uh, happy to dive more into that. Um, more I'd say gong work-related, uh, challenge that we're a super excited about these days is, uh, last week at our first annual industry conference celebrate 19 we launched our new category revenue intelligence [inaudible], which we're super excited about. Um, I promise not to [inaudible]

go off to a, gone off to any product pitches here today, so I'll only answer what you want about that, but, uh, but I am very excited that we're taking the [inaudible] the old conversation intelligence category, which is quickly becoming sort of legacy and table-stakes from any companies. And we're expanding that to a much broader vision that we call revenue intelligence. Um, so that is a major initiative for our marketing team and company think is about to change the industry again like we've done before.

I love it. Um, okay. I actually, I do have some questions for you about that. Um, and so yeah, we, we can get into gong a little so, um, as well, because I, so I, I mean I'm totally biased. I'm a huge fan of gong. I think that the, the content that your team is putting out is second to nine. Um, and the platform is really amazing as well. So we can get into this. They think, you know, in the context of this trend that you're talking about. And so what some people also might know, um, you know, what we do at customer intelligence Institute I think kind of lays the foundation for the kind of work that you're doing it gong, um, cause in this, in this landscape where B2B, it's just, it's not business as usual anymore. You kind of, you can't get away with just not really understanding your buyers and understanding that, um, you know, that market intelligence, it's just, it's totally mission-critical. And if you, I think you know what's going on, you know, and you're like, Oh no, we, we know our buyers. We understand, we understand our customers, we know what's going on, then probably you, you don't. And I don't know.

Well, yeah, well everyone's, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but not everyone is entitled to their own facts.

Sure. Yeah, exactly. So it's, I think, you know, this is as a lot of new trends are just, you know, even just major tectonic shifts. Do you, they kind of, it's, it makes it much harder. It's harder and harder to kind of hide behind, um, that knowledge gap, that like critical market intelligence gap. So, um, I am also incredibly excited about this. So I mean, let's talk about that more and let's talk about, for anyone who doesn't know what gong is you and what you're doing at gong. I mean, just

sure. Sure. How you're happy to, happy to. So, so I mean, it really starts, just like you explained, Laura, in the [inaudible] organizations and businesses have tolerated for far too long a situation where, um, systems like the CRM that many, many people call their single source of truth is really a big source of opinions because how the data entered into there by people and people like you and me, uh, we've had a bad day. Uh, we're late for our next meeting. The last thing we want to do is sit and transcribe a one hour call that we just had like this one. So, uh, here's a fun fact for, you know, an an hour's conversation like we're having now, how many words on average are exchanged? It's, it's six thousand six thousand words are spoken within an hour. That's when we're speaking like casual. Just be like this. You know, how many of those 6,000 words make it into a typical call summary in the CRM?

I'm going to get 30. Yes, yes, you've got it. It's 30. So you've already lost like 99% of the information when it's first entered in the CRM. So that's that. That's [inaudible]. That's problem number one. All the information there is very limited. Okay. Um, the, the information is, is skewed and subjective, right? Because it's a human putting it in. So you know, many businesses, um, we'll, we'll pick like a, a business loss reason when they lost an opportunity and it's usually around a wrong tech setup or company too small. But I haven't, haven't seen a company or a salesperson put in, I wasn't in the zone today. I failed to show value. I was just having a bad day. No one puts that into the system. But that's often why businesses lost. So, so your, your information is, is not only limited, but it's also distorted. And, and finally it's, it's getting stale because it comes in late because when you finish a call, usually running off to another call or meeting, you don't sit there and put the information while it's fresh.

Maybe you'll get to that. If you're really diligent, you'll get that to the end of your day. Sometimes it'll be a week later. So, so your information suffers from being limited, suffers from being stale and suffers from being distorted. In other words, your CRM is suffering from LSD, right? And that is what we are trying to solve. That is what we're trying to solve. Uh, by keeping the information fresh and making it factual against biased or distorted and making it 100% complete. And yeah, and the re, and the way we do that is it's a three step process. It's capturing understanding and surfacing insights. So first we capture all of the organization's customer conversations, whether they're on a zoom call, like we're having now on a phone call, during an email or during a face to face meetings. We've developed and patented technologies for capturing all of those types of conversations.

Number two is, uh, we run our artificial intelligence and machine learning algorithms to understand those conversations and see what's leading to the next call and what's leading to a dead end, what is leading to a one deal and what is leading to a loss deal. And then we can reverse engineer that and say, Hey, Lauren, this is what you're doing. That is winning deals, but this is what John and your team is doing that is winning even more deals. So for example, um, it made surface something as simple as it seems like you're speaking on average 76% of your call time, but John who has a better win rate according to your own data, has a, uh, much lower talk time, 46%. And we've figure it out. Then on your team that leads to more one deals. You may want to [inaudible] cut down on the amount of talking you do on the next call or uh, you're leading your, your calls by talking about feature a, but John is talking about feature B and he's closing more deals.

So you should try that next time and buy personalized by surfacing these personalized insights and recommendations, we can really take a lot of what's working for the best reps and transfer that to the rest of the team. So that is just a part of, of, of what we're doing, which is really our way of saying, okay, goodbye opinions, hello reality. Let's look at what's really working and not debate about what's working. Let's put opinions on the side. As I said, everyone's entitled to them, but you're not entitled to your version of the facts. Let's just look at those. And that's what really gong excels at of making everything factual. So we're not arguing about opinions, we're just looking at reality as it is. And this is what's helping organizations that are already using gong [inaudible] do better business because they now I can understand all of their customer conversations and make much faster and better decisions as they roll out new products, new messaging, new pricing. They can surface when competitors are coming up and calls which competitors are trending more this month than they were last month. And it just allows organizations to adapt to the modern speed of doing business today. Sure, definitely. And I'm going to be other thing that I really like about as part

of doing all of this is that you're taking that data and um, you know it to an onlooker. It seems like there's really a lot of energy and, um, investment in [inaudible] pulling that together and sharing that, um, you know, sharing that through the content that your team is putting out, which, um, is really appreciate and I think just helps kind of


Um, everyone in B2B and, and help, you know, sales teams operate a lot more effectively.

Yeah. When, when I, when I got here to gong three years ago, uh, you know, I, I started looking around what I could use to create awesome content marketing, which was sort of one of my [inaudible] and, and fortes. And, uh, I immediately saw that we were sitting on a gold mine of real life customer conversations that are [inaudible] customers are having with their customers. Uh, today we have the largest repository of real life sales conversations in the world. Um, academic institutions like a [inaudible], Harvard university and others come to us to get access in very limited and an anomaly, anonymous way to that database for their own research. Because there is no bigger sales database in the world of sales calls and are able to leverage those 10 million calls to surface patterns that are data scientists, uh, uncover for us of what's really working and not working.

So we know things like what's the ideal range of number of questions you should ask on a sales call to get to that, to secure your next call. Uh, what is, how many milliseconds should you wait before interrupting a customer when they're done? If you want to secure that next call, what is the worst time of the week to schedule a sales call? All of these amazing insights they surface by analyzing this huge mass of, of data that no one else has. And then what we did is not only share that with our own customers by personalizing our recommendations for their teams, but everything that we found that works pretty much industry-wide, we surface that in our blog. So there's the gong labs content series you can find at gong.io/blog. Um, for a few months we ran a LinkedIn live show where we shared a lot of those insights in our video programming. And just by following gong out IO LinkedIn page or visiting our blog, you can get access to hundreds of articles. She cheats templates and video courses that will teach you these things that again are not based on opinions or something I think you should do, but I'm showing you the facts of why this works and this doesn't

absolutely. Oh, okay. Actually I'm going to ask, can you share one or two of those, those nuggets for someone watching right now who's, who's thinking, Oh my God, this is amazing. Um, and I want to use it today on my next call. What are one or two things?

Sure. Here, here are a few, few starters, uh, that I'm going to talk about tomorrow at the Chicago sales assembly. I'm, I'm uh, I was thinking a breakfast event there and I'm going to be sharing some of our discovery call tactics that [inaudible] that our data surface. So here are a few of them. Uh, one which I think is, is really a classic is the talk time and that is there's a golden ratio and an easy way of remembering this. Uh, if you're a mother or grandmother told you that, uh, God gave you two ears and one mouth and you should use them at that ratio, they were absolutely right. So it turns out that there is a golden ratio and we should keep our talk time to around 46% of a customer call. If you're dominating the call and talking for 80% of the time, you probably already know intuitively that you're unlikely to get that next call because you've just exhausted your customer.

She probably tuned out at some point and went to check her emails if you weren't on a video call because who wants to hear another person talking about themselves for 80% of the time or customer wants to be heard? And not only will that improve your chances of getting the next call, but by letting her talk for most of the call, you're getting a lot of information that you could use for better positioning your product and value proposition. When you do finally get to your demo and value prop part of the call. So keep your talk down, time to below 50% around 46% is where you want to be. And you'll see that if you start doing that. And you know, gong users see their talk time after every call. And it's very typical that we see people like me who are big talkers cause we all love the sound of our own voice, started about 80% talk time.

And over time we bring that down to 50% or less as we're monitoring this from one call to another. So that's one big one. Um, a couple of interesting ones in the, in the context of discovery calls. So, um, you know, there's always a question of how many questions should I ask? What's too little that I won't learn enough to give them a great value proposition. But what's too much that I'm exhausting them. So it turns out then in an average one hour call, 11 to 14 is a good number of questions to be on. Um, if you ask 25 questions, you're probably exhausting the other side and just sounds like they're being grilled. If you're asking only three or four questions, you're probably not getting enough information to build the best offer that you can for them prospect. So 11 to 14 questions is a great a range to be in in terms of number of questions for a discovery call.

But there are two big buckets. So one but is do not, do not ask all of those 11 to 14 questions up front, one after the other, because that will still sound like grilling. What the best discovery salespeople do is they sprinkle those questions throughout the entire call and that's much harder to do because it's much easier to take a piece of paper with my list of questions, just run down them. Let me get this out of the way. I'm just going to ask you 15 questions right now that that's, that's a bad experience. So the best salespeople know how to weave those into a natural conversation and have one surface every five minutes or so. And then you don't feel like you're being grilled. It feels like we're having coffee and having conversation, which would be normal for me to ask you a question and then let you ask a question.

Then we respond to each other and then we [inaudible]. We do a lot of this interaction. So that's one big bot. Don't ask them all up front. The next big bud is look at the buyer persona that you're talking to. And what do I mean by that? So many times, um, vendors want to sell their technology to a senior leader. It could be a CMO, it could be a VP of sales, it could be a CFO, depending what product you're selling. By the time you get to the call with that senior leader, you want to keep the number of discovery questions as low as possible. And we found for it to be a good number according to our data. You want to keep your questions that senior sales leader or any other C C suite executive to four, if you start asking, that's CFO your 12 questions, including very basic stuff like which CRM you're using and what the accounting system you're using. She will quickly get nervous and, and a frustrated with you because you should have done your homework before wasting that CFO's time. So if you've already set up a call with a senior leader, you want to make sure you do your homework before you can use online sources. You can use assistance and influencers within that account and, and build your champions there. But once you get that senior leader, keep your questions down to four. So she gets enough value from that call and you're not exhausted. Yeah,

fantastic. And this, I mean, these, these amazing pieces of advice based on, again, the data that you've collected. So this is not conjecture. This is, this is fact, right? So, I mean, funny, it's, it kind of, I think it challenges, um, anyone who isn't a sales role, which is already difficult to, to really become a little bit more sophisticated in their approach. And you do have to spend more time doing discovery and it's not something I think that's [inaudible] just totally natural. It's going to happen immediately on the first call. I mean, what, what's your experience looking at at that data or even at gong, you know, when you're getting on, you kind of see that, that talk time taper off. How long does it usually take to kind of get from where your average sales rep would usually be? It maybe like 80% down to more like 50%.

So I think it's the most important thing here is really the approach and philosophy that you take, the mindset that you adopt to improving your craft. If you look at people who Excel at any craft, right? If they're Olympic athletes or the best marketers are the best salespeople [inaudible] constantly treat themselves as students of their craft. And they're never content with how well they're doing. You talk to gold medalists who have won the Olympics, they still want to get better for next year. They want to break another personal record. They want to break another world record. They're already the top of their craft by any objective measure, but they constantly want to get it better and they're never happy or content with where they are. That's what drives that excellence and Mmm. Today I think we're seeing more than ever before this thirst or hunger of salespeople and their managers to improve as teams and take that craft of salesmanship to the next level.

You know, in the past you've got a playbook from [inaudible] the 80s that that Xerox made, which was really good for its time and it included like really great tips and tricks on how to sell. That doesn't work anymore. That doesn't work. People have different expectations of the experience. [inaudible] and the sales market itself is so competitive that you have to continue adapting and learning and changing and reinventing yourself just to stay at the top. [inaudible] I think, uh, the, the, uh, the 700 or so organizations that are already using gong to improve their sales team have adopted that mindset of we can always get better if we want to beat our competition. Yeah. We always need to be getting better. You know, we're, we're hiring new people to grow and some people are churning, which is natural in any organization. So new people are coming. We need to onboard them as quickly as possible from hire to revenue.

We need to keep them motivated and continue improving their skills. So they want to stay with us for as long as, as we've liked them to. And with technologies like, like, uh, like gong and, and others that the people are using today, you can really get people on that learning curve in a very measurable way. So you asked how long it takes. We typically see that it takes a few weeks, just start improving some of the easier metrics, like talk time. That's pretty easy. But there are a lot more advanced techniques. Um, and at tomorrow's Chicago event, I'm going to be talking about techniques that we borrowed from [inaudible]. Um, Chris boss's book never split the difference. [inaudible] and he talks about advanced techniques like mirroring and labeling that could take months to teach someone to use in a artful way, uh, that, that doesn't come off as too obvious.

So these are things you can track with, with today's technology and, and there's always something more to strive for, which I think makes everyone's job a lot more exciting and fulfilling if you know that you're not just coming in to do the same thing over and over again without ever changing or improving, but you've actually said goals. So this quarter I'm going to be working on my [inaudible], um, talk time and question asking the next quarter, maybe I'll take on mirroring and, and labeling and, and the next quarter I'll, I'll, I'll work on my patients factor, which means how long do I wait before I interrupt other person? There's so many things you can improve about your sales conversations. And the beautiful thing is that you get pretty quick feedback, not only on how you're doing on those conversation metrics, but you will see more deals closing. So that that should motivate any salesperson, I suppose.

100%. Very cool. Okay. Well thank you for sharing those, uh, those tips that anyone watching can take that and, and go away with it and actually start using it today, which is phenomenal. Um, okay. So let's, let's shift gears a little bit and let's, um, talk about, um, you know, what is, what is a, a recent challenge that you've experienced. And this could be at gong with a customer, it could be internally, but, um, tell us about this challenge. So we're really with you there in the experience and then walk us through that whole path too, coming to a solution.

So, um, I, I mentioned this briefly before, but happy to dive into, uh, now maybe from, from the problem part. So, uh, we, we've been very fortunate of growing very quickly as a company, one of the fastest growing companies in Silicon Valley. And, uh, that comes with some challenges. It's not all roses. And rainbows. Uh, it comes with some challenges. One of the challenges that we found is that, uh, when we get to conversations with senior sales leaders of larger companies like enterprise companies, uh, we sometimes get knocked down to a second level person, could be a head of sales enablement or sales ops because they perceive gong as another tool in the stack. And we wanted to improve on our messaging capabilities for those senior leaders to make it more difficult for them to knock us down someone else. Because we know from our data, which we use exhaustedly as you can imagine, that when we start that conversation with a prospect at the highest sales leadership level, chances of that deal coming to fruition are much, much higher.

And if we start with someone, uh, at the, at a lower level in the, in org organizational food, uh, a food chart, so a food chain, sorry. So, so we, we set out to, to solve that problem. How do we get long enough in front of that senior sales leader before we get knocked down? How do we stay [inaudible] and top of their mind and attention and uh, Oh, I won't bore you with all the details of a long process we went through, but we found that [inaudible] a big part of that can be solved with messaging. And specifically once they heard the, the our old or previous category name of conversation intelligence, that sort of triggered something in many of their minds saying, okay, this is another tool it has to do with call recording. Let's, let's send that to enablement. Let them figure it out.

And many times that's where deals go to die. And, uh, to make sure that we stay top of mind to the senior leadership and we understood we need to make a fundamental change. And after a few months of work around that, uh, led by one of our amazing team members that was hire do that we came to the conclusion that we need to redefine the category that we operate in and make it something a lot more strategic at the chief sales officer would care about. Uh, it's not just another tool there thousands of sales and marketing tools to [inaudible] choose from. And to cut through the clutter, you have to be very different or very cheap. Those are the only two options you have [inaudible] to stand out. Either you can articulate why you're better or be cheaper, that there's no other way to get attention. And so we, we of course chose, uh, the former of, of showing why we're better and to do that.

And we've redefined our categories, revenue intelligence and from feedback we've collected from senior sales leaders like those that we are selling to. We got really positive feedback that yes, this is something I would take time out of my day, out of my very busy day to listen to. How can you help me improve my revenue intelligence? How can I succeed more with my revenue team, with this new technology? And it doesn't sound like it. And another tactical tool. Yeah. And that is part of the process. We've really just, you know, we, we went through a few months of planning and, and last week at our celebrate conference we launched our new category. But the journey is really just beginning because we've got probably years ahead of us of solidifying the creation of this category is something real. It becomes a must have tool. A w for every winning sales team.

Um, you know, every, every company who's ever tried to create a new category knows that your number one competitor is not another company selling a similar product. We hardly every lose a deal to a similar company. Our real enemy is the status quo, the status quo or where people are. Well, you know, it ain't broke. Don't fix it. I've been doing fine without your product until now. Uh, it's not that I'm ripping out something else and putting this in, I'm, we're trying to convince people that this is something it possibly I've never heard of or didn't know they need, but they need it right now. And that is the challenge. Uh, so we're fighting against that status quo and specifically against the budget status quo, right? Cause if you're in a, in a established, mature category, let's say you're selling email automation. So every head of marketing like me has a budget line item for email marketing. I could be using Marketo or Eloqua or HubSpot or act on or par dot or any product that I have the budget line item already secured from day one. If you're trying to sell a new emerging category like revenue intelligence, almost nobody has that budget line item. That is my real competition that I'm fighting. So once you understand that state of mind and you develop your strategy and then tactics for how do I overcome that obstacle and that competition, things start moving more smoothly.

I am so glad that you chose this challenge to talk about because I think, I mean, it's incredibly relatable. Um, how do we get up higher and you know, to that senior leadership, to director level and above and, um, this is something that we actually do. And, um, strategic consulting and helping companies with messaging to do, you know, what you're describing, you're in the process and you've begun doing it gong. Mmm. And it, I mean, it really is critical, but so what's the difference? Um, you shared it a little bit, right? I mean it's, it's Mmm, it has to be a solution. It has to address high level business goals and not just be a tool. So that is a different conversation. Um, you know, additionally, we work with a lot of companies who are in some way in an emerging category or addressing, um, you know, buyers who are in emerging roles for example, and kind of, you know, everybody's [inaudible] all over the place in that space. And I think the, you know, the approach is different. So share with us a little bit more about how you approach that messaging. What strategies did you use in choosing, you know, how to Uplevel that messaging

to reach the buyers that you wanted to? Sure, sure. So I mean, there, there's several, you know, time tested messaging frameworks. I think, uh, uh, one of the most popular, especially in B2B, is the [inaudible] problem solution framework. Where, tell me if this is a problem that you have. You're trying to send out 2000 emails a week, but, uh, you're not finding an efficient way of doing that. You're spending hours setting up your Gmail or, or, or outlook to send out these emails. Does this sound like a problem you have? And then you're nodding, yes, this is a problem. Have, this is your lucky day. Here's a solution I offer that solves that problem. Let me tell you all about it and why it's the best thing since sliced bread and it's going to change your life. You'll be fitter and thinner and healthier, and also send out all the emails that you want.

So that is the, the classic cause or problem solution, a messaging framework, Mmm. From that have evolved more recent and I think a little bit more interesting frameworks. One of them that, uh, we, our students have and have been using parts of is as the Andy Raskin Mmm. Promised land messaging, uh, which if you don't know the name or, or framework, please go look up, uh, the best sales deck I've ever seen or one of his other articles. Uh, I know he's also working on his upcoming book. So a shout out to Andy Raskin, we love your work. And, uh, I think everyone should read. Uh, some of his work that's already out there. And in a nutshell that that [inaudible] framework is a little bit different than problem solution. Uh, he would say it's very different. What it talks about is, uh, here's the world your customers were living in, but now the world is changing.

Here's a global shift that I will make you admit is happening. Do you and your customers, and out of that shift there will be winners and losers. Here's what the winners look like. Here's what the losers look like. Hey, if you want like, look at [inaudible], uh, a retail look at Amazon is clearly a winner while Macy's and Nordstrom are with the losers right now because they haven't adapted to the changes in retail world. Now, what does the promised land look for look like for winners? So they need a, you know, a online inventory and UpToDate, uh, customer experiences and so on and so on. And then we look at what are the obstacles for getting to that promise lands? What are the hurdles you need to, to overcome? And then out of that, when you already have everyone nodding in agreement, yes, this is what the world is going through, this is an undeniable change.

Yes, these are definitely winners. Yes, these are definitely losers. Here's what the promised land looks like and here are the obstacles you need to overcome. Only then you surface your solution, which helps you overcome those obstacles. And that becomes a very palatable yes. Because if that can help me work my way through the story that I just agreed to every step of, and then I probably need your solution. And that's a really wonderful framework that we [inaudible] you haven't taken literally from a to Z but definitely used several elements of overtime. [inaudible] and I think it's, it's a really interesting one, um, to overcomplicate things just a little bit more. Um, I'll say that depending again on what stage or industry and company and market are in, um, I would, I would cautious marketers and salespeople to treat inbound and outbound leads or inquiries in the same way.

They are not in the same position. Um, when [inaudible] when, when one of your outbound SDRs does a great job and gets you in front of a sales leader or any other leader that you're trying to sell to, um, you need to start from pretty much square one with that person of uncovering their business problems. What have they done so far? Why has that not been enough? What are they looking for in an ideal solution? And then weave in your value proposition. That's, that's a long, classic discovery to solution process. But if someone's already come inbound on your website and ask for a demo, they've gone through steps one through seven without, you don't bore them to tears by going through that same discovery process. They've already done it without you. They've read reviews on G2 or Capterra or crust Pilar or whatever they've asked their colleagues what they're using to solve the similar problem that they're having.

Their colleagues probably told them about you, which is what brought them to your website. And now they ask for a demo. Please don't put them through that Spanish inquisition of steps one to seven goes straight to why this solution can solve the problem. You understand that they have, I mean, don't assume too much, but ask a few very light guiding questions. [inaudible] you absolutely don't need to start from the top of the buying funnel because I them coming into your website with an inbound demo, requests for pricing aggressor or whatever, or free trial or whatever you're offering. They're already telling you, I've done my research, I know I want you, just give me a good price and let's move on. So I suggest we all stop and consider how to treat those different types of leads in different appropriate ways.

Yes, I love it. Um, and completely agree. It's, I think all of these modern marketing and selling strategies, what the, that factor, that additional factor that makes them effective in today's landscape is context, right? It's, it's not just these are the steps. It's adapting to the bigger picture of what's going on and understanding. We just, we're not doing this in a vacuum. Um, and because of the pace that technology is moving and you know, everything's moving so fast, it's just so much more in our faces, you know, it just doesn't work to move forward absent any kind of context. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of this. Cause I mean, everything that you've shared, this is one of the reasons why I'm such a huge fan of gong. And again, I'll just keep saying it throughout this call.

I won't stop you.

The content that you're, you know, you're putting out is that it's completely actionable. You can take it, you can look at it and you can go start applying it, uh, today and um, you know, so, so it's incredibly valuable. Thank you for walking us through the very relatable challenge that I think is kind of going on across the board and B2B today. Sure. Um, so I guess we've kind of covered this, but just really short and sweet, you know, if you're, if you're talking with a peer who's addressing the same, you know, the same challenge, you explained this really amazing framework and everything, but what's one other just singular piece of advice you could give a peer who's trying to take their own teams and elevate that messaging for their target buyers?

If I'm talking to a marketing peer, uh, another head of marketing, I would say, look more marketing. Unlike many other professions, uh, a salesperson is probably going to sit back and wait until you bring them leads to work on, unless they're like super motivated and we'll go do some prospecting and engineer will sit back and wait for a product manager to tell them what to write code so they know what product they need to produce. Marketers. Uh, for good or worse, we have a ability and tendency to get very busy very quickly, sometimes mindlessly going through many, many activities. Oh, we have to go to that event. Oh, we have to publish on Twitter today. Oh, we have to send out an ebook. When was the last email campaign last week? Let's quick just send out sending today. It's so easy to get busy and fill your day with 10 meetings and [inaudible] five campaigns a week.

Um, but putting together all these campaigns will not create an overall strategy. And, and I, I see that mistake over, I've fallen for it myself at different times at different companies. And I see marketers doing that all the time saying we're doing all of this stuff, but it's not working. It's not coming together. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. [inaudible] what's your strategy? Oh, I don't know, but I'm just doing this email campaigns. I'm doing these events. But what's your strategy? Just stop everything you're doing or you're in the lucky position of not having started yet. Take your time, build a strategy, SI what the best case scenario will look like. And then reverse engineer what are the tactics and campaigns you need to put into place to get there. So if you are going for content strategy, what is the big idea? What is going to make your content absolutely irresistible to your audience?

If you're going for an event strategy, what will make people line up like at a nightclub outside to enter your event? You can just go about this mindlessly as if you're chick checking boxes off the list because it will not work. If you do something that everyone else is doing. You can only expect the same results that everyone else is getting. If you want remarkable results, you have to do something remarkable and so I urge everyone to take the time to strategize and this is something that's worth visiting at a deep level once a year at a, at a lighter level of at least once a quarter. To check in and see is is did what I assume it's really happening are, am I getting the results that I need? If not, just stop what you're doing. It's obviously not working. Stop pouring in more money and resources beyond what you've already wasted.

Stop and think of something else to try. Once you find something that works, scale that and at the same time start planning your next way because whatever's working now, I can guarantee will stop working in six to 24 months. There is no channel that you can keep going on without exhausting forever. There is no channel. Um, so whenever you find something work that's great to scale that with everything you've got, but already start figuring out the next wave that's going to bring you leads or success or whatever you're trying to do. Because when that works, stop working, you will have that second wave. But if something is not working right, stop doing it mindlessly. I think that is the biggest mistake. So many marketers do. They get into inertia. Oh, but I have to be on Twitter cause everyone else on Twitter. And guess what? I'm not on Twitter. I never found that it works for me. I'm not wasting a single second of my week being on Twitter. It just doesn't work for me. I'm doing other stuff that maybe others aren't doing and that's where I'm succeeding.

That's so funny. I, I decided today or wasn't gonna pursue Twitter either if I felt the same way. But the FOMO is real, I think as a marketer because these activities are so visible. So it, you know, it can be emotionally confronting

in all, in all walks of life. Yet yesterday, my, my parents are staying with me for the weekend and yesterday they asked me why we don't have a television in the living room. I said, I haven't watched television over 10 years. And they're like, [inaudible] there's one in the kids and guest room that are for the guests and the kids to watch occasionally ask me, why don't you watch the news? I'm like, no. Like why would I need to watch the news? Yeah. I think overcoming FOMO is part of your sort of maturation process. You want to, you can't, we can't do everything. If I want to focus on work, uh, advancing my career that at a hyper-growth company and I've got a, I've got a loving husband and three kids that I want to spend time with and I'm, I'm taking, uh, private, uh, piano, jazz lessons to work on my technique.

So I can go back to playing in an ensemble, uh, that I, I played with recently. You can't do everything and also work out at the gym a few times a week. So I cut out television off my schedule. Uh, I, I feel zero FOMO about it and you know, at some points I, I do more music and, or less baking or, or whatever. You've just got to figure out that balance. You can't have 20 things going on full throttle because no one can sustain that. You have to pick what are the three, four, five, as many as you can handle things. And I'm focusing on right now and I think that's a good tip for life, but definitely for your career and just cut out everything else and forget about the FOMO. Let, let others worry about the stuff that you already know isn't working. Let them waste their time and resources on that while you're moving full speed ahead at what you know and see is working.

I love it. Um, and the term for that is, is Jomo. It's the joy of missile.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I hate wasting my time on business travel. I'm traveling to Chicago. Literally, I'm going to be in the city for six hours and flying back to the West coast because I just don't want to waste an extra night there. I'm going to make it to my piano lesson this evening, take the red eye, do a breakfast, uh, do a breakfast, uh, event in Chicago, and I'll be back home tomorrow evening to cook dinner for my family. I'm not gonna miss anytime. I don't care about, you know, whatever I'm missing out in Chicago beyond my events. So that's definitely the joy of missing out.

Massive respect for that. Um, and actually, so, but we mentioned this by the time this video comes out, this will probably have already happened, but you have this, this event tomorrow and then you're speaking at drift in a few weeks as well.

Yeah. Check out drift hypergrowth conference. You know, they have a series of great events on the East and West coast. The next one is coming up. Uh, I think it's November 16th in San Francisco. I will be one of the speakers there, uh, with a, an amazing lineup of, uh, other CMOs that you want to come listen to. So check us out there and if anyone wants to learn more about us or about the research that we talked about, just go to [inaudible] dot. IO and uh, we'll answer all your questions there.

Perfect. Okay. Um, and I will link to a below cause I'm sure that will, you know, your talk will be available by the time this comes out. And you answered my next question. What's the best way to reach you? So as we wrap up, um, can you share a business resource, like a book of podcast? It's technology that you're getting the most out of right now?

Oh, the most right now. I think the, the last book I read last month and really wowed me was uh, Chris bosses. Um, don't split, never split the difference. For those who don't know him, he was a head, uh, hostage negotiator for the FBI and he took his wisdom from that time and put it into a business book of how to negotiate. And I think it's a really good book for life and it'll change how you talk to your partner and your colleagues and to your team. And, and it's really, really interesting book. So go read that. And, and uh, finally, if you're a marketer who still hasn't read Robert Danny's book called influence the six pillars of [inaudible] persuasion, um, don't talk to me until you have go read that book right now. Uh, it's, it's the Bible of marketing and everything that we're doing today is based on Robert's insights from the 80s. Um, that's absolutely, uh, groundbreaking book. You should go read it.

Fantastic. Um, I will, I have read it and agree. I think it's time to give it another read though. Um, so I'll link that below as well. And as we wrap up, um, can you share with us what the best piece of business advice you ever received?

Ah, it's very tactical but it's I think super useful for marketers and that is right as you would speak. And that goes back to what I started with B to B marketing, learning more and more from B to C marketing cause they figured that out decades ago and they were talking to us on commercials and ads as human beings do. But B2B for so long has been talking to us in a weird made up way of what they thought businesses should be talking to other businesses like. And if you just scrap that and start all your emails with, imagine you're writing this email or ad to a friend or to your mother, would you write like this? If not, delete it and start again until you get it right that this was, this would be an email that you would be comfortable writing to a friend or receiving from a friend.

And if it sounds like you know, these are the 24 tips you need to learn for something that you wouldn't ride to a friend like that. So just don't write to your customers like that either. Just right as you would speak. And that will change your marketing forever. It's, it's much harder to do than it sounds. I know it sounds almost trivial, but few marketers get that, right. Those who do, uh, companies like drift and other great, uh, companies are doing great marketing these days. You see that their emails are fun to receive. I look forward to opening them even if I'm not about to buy their next product. I want to see the email cause I appreciate the craft that went into it. And uh, if you write your emails that way you will see your open rates and click through rates go much, much higher, high guarantee.

I love it. Excellent advice. Um, well Rudy, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a great interview. Uh, totally packed with insight and advice that anyone who's made it this far can take and start putting to use today. Um, so thanks for having great. Um, okay. And so for anyone who's made it this far, thank you for watching. If you liked this video, be sure to subscribe for weekly videos like this. Give it a thumbs up if you enjoyed it. And for more information, you can visit customer and tell customer intelligence institute.com and we will se

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